Episode 4: The book was better
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Summary
Episode 4: Hosts nicholae cline, Jen Brown, Sofia Leung dive into the messy art of adaptation: what makes one truly work, why some versions feel like magic while others fall flat, and the qualities that tend to signal when an adaptation really gets it right. Along the way, they share some all-time favorite (and least favorite) adaptations and consider books and other media that they would (and wouldn’t) want to see adapted.
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Intro
nicholae: You’re listening to the We Reads podcast where we: nicholae,
Jen: Jen,
Sofia: and Sofia talk about books, the authors we love and how our identities show up while we’re reading.
Jen: These books have brought us joy, nourished us and changed us for the better. We’re excited to discuss them with you!
nicholae
I'm so curious though, y'all. What is this episode about? Like, i was, we have these show notes that we do, audience, behind the scenes peek. And I wasn't sure if we were talking about adaptations or other media. And one of those other kinds of media is adaptations. So when we were writing in our notes, You know, I have a lot of video games I talked about, but they're not adaptations, right? So I wasn't sure, whereas I saw Jen's. Obviously, Sofia didn't have any, um which is fine.
[laughter]
jen
Wow.
sofia
Obviously.
nicholae
um Only because you're a video game hater. Just kidding.
sofia
um Wow.
nicholae
Just kidding.
sofia
Wow.
jen
Shots fired
sofia
Yeah. and ah
nicholae
No, no.
sofia
I'm speechless.
nicholae
Gooped and gagged. um But I saw that jens Jen has, well, I won't say what they are, but because that'll come later, but yours are adaptations or have been adapted, right?
jen
Mmhmm
nicholae
So that was sort of a question I had, and maybe we can just talk through that a little bit or go with it and see what what comes out of it all.
jen
That's a good question. Yeah. I was like, i didn't know how, like, yeah, how, how close to the adaptation piece we had to be, but I like that you included ones that aren't because I also am curious to know from y'all, like at some point, We'll talk about maybe what we wish would be adapted into something. Like if there's something that hasn't been made elsewhere or it started out as a video game, but you're like, ooh, this would be such a good ah film or vice versa. i'd I'd be excited to know if y'all have feelings about that too. So I think it's everything. It's all of the above.
sofia
Yeah, let's do it.
nicholae
That's what I like to hear.
jen
Yes. Can I throw an and and unprepared for question at y'all? I'm very curious for both of you. Do you have feelings about what makes an adaptation in any sense of it? Like know regardless of what media it started as um and what it was turned into, like what makes an adaptation good or what conventions do you notice when the adaptation gets it right? And this can be across any genre, any kind of media.
sofia
Yeah, I think for me, it has to stay true to like what what's like the heart of the book, like what makes this book run versus like, and but also, you know, what makes the book run, but then will it actually fit into the format you're translating it into? Because, you know, sometimes it's like, oh, I i don't really care if it stays like that true to the book. But if you are doing adaptation, it does feel like the vibes should be the same.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
sofia
Like the feeling that you get reading the book is hopefully the same feeling you get watching or playing or whatever it is you're doing. But don't necessarily, for example, need like the plot to be exactly the same. And I'm never like memorized. I'm not someone who rereads a lot, so I don't have anything memorized. So often when I watch a thing or sometimes if I read the book afterwards, I'm never like, oh, that didn't happen exactly the way i remembered it to have happened, mainly because I don't remember what happened, but I what the vibe was when I was reading or watching it
jen
Right.
nicholae
Yeah, yeah, I feel that. i I think for a long time, one of the sort of like clearest critiques of adaptations or one of the unspoken standards by which adaptations were measured was fidelity. So their fidelity to the source material. And i I think we don't largely think that way anymore.
Perhaps some do, you know. i'm i'm no I don't have my pulse on what everyone thinks about adaptations, obviously, but I imagine we agree on this. But certainly my feeling is that it doesn't really matter if it exactly copies the original. It doesn't need to be a carbon copy, but it does need to really understand and play up the strengths of the new medium, right?
So if it's a television show, if it's a movie, whatever it happens to be, it needs to really work with those strengths and do something new that's only possible in that medium, because there needs to be a reason why it was adapted at all, right?
jen
Right.
nicholae
And so just kind of like taking the original book or whatever and putting it into a new medium as a copy doesn't seem to do anything new, doesn't give us anything new. But I really like what Sofia was saying about the heart of the work, because I think capturing the spirit and tone is something that's really important and makes a good adaptation, even if it's not exactly the same.
I mean, I think of something like No Country for Old Men, right? The Coen brothers, it's basically word-for-word fidelity to Cormac McCarthy's dialogue, but I don't think that's what makes it successful. I think one of the things that makes it such a good adaptation and such a good movie is that it really expresses the novel's incredibly bleak and philosophical approach to both atmosphere and violence, right?
And I think similarly, something like Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy Really, mean, understood the assignment.
jen
yeah
sofia
Yes.
nicholae
I mean, I think that's one of the highest bars for adaptations.
sofia
Yes. Yep.
nicholae
It's often mentioned as a good adaptation, but it understood the epic scale, the high fantasy and the themes of, you know, camaraderie and hardship and sacrifice that and lore that everyone loved about Tolkien's books, right?
jen
thousand percent
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
So those two are the things that I think really stand out to me because it needs to both capture that heart, but also stand on its own as a work of art.
sofia
yeah
jen
so good. Yeah, go ahead, Sofia.
sofia
No, I'm just going to add one thing, which I think you sort of were saying, nicholae, of like the person who's adapting to like love the thing they're adapting. Otherwise, like, why are they doing it?
jen
yeah Yes. Yes.
nicholae
Yes, yes.
jen
Exactly that. And I think, um I mean, first of all, nicholae, you're the first person that's actually made me want to watch or read No Country for Old Men.
jen
I've not read it. I've not seen the film.
sofia
Oh, sorry. Still not interested.
jen
ah
nicholae
They're both intense. They're intense.
jen
Oh, God. i mean, yeah, you made it sound really compelling. um But i what I think I'm picking up from both of y'all in a yes and way is like, I i feel like part of why adaptations can have heart and why they can be, um even whether or not there's high you know closeness to the original thing or not, I feel like when you when you think about the audience that's going to consume the thing in whatever medium it is, it can really transform what you're making. And you know the main thing that comes to my mind most recently is like the Bridgerton TV series where you know those books are...
i Again, I've not read Bridgerton books. I didn't know anything about Bridgerton before Shondaland got you know into the game. But... I feel like they made such a smart decision that many like not historical ah period pieces, period romances have have shied away from, which is that like historical accuracy.
There were no aristocratic Black people in this time, which of course we all know that history is is so complex. It's never true. But I think Bridgerton is almost like a fantasy period piece to me.
sofia
Oh, 100%.
jen
Like it it is very, right, right.
And they, I don't think the books, I mean, I know the books weren't written with characters of color. Like if you go by them, but none of those people look like they do in the show. But Shondaland knew who she knew who the audience was supposed to be. Shonda Rhimes was like, we're not making this for a small segment. We're trying to make this to appeal to a wide group of readers, I think they took, they probably took so many more liberties too beyond just the ethnicity of those casts. But I'm thinking of like some of the side characters, like the brother who's like coming into his pansexuality. Like, was that in the book?
I don't know. and i mean, maybe.
sofia
I don't think so. And I, you know, there's also like that queer character coming up, one of the sisters.
jen
yes, it um yes, yes, yes.
sofia
And I don't think, I want to say, no, no.
jen
Sorry, I got real...
sofia
I want to say it's not, I don't think Julia Quinn wrote them that way.
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
sofia
I've never read her either, to be honest, but.
jen
See? Yeah. And, you know, Julia Quinn stans, if you are listening, you can let us know if we're wrong. but But I think that's that is the point, is like when you make something, you think about who's going to watch it, who do you want to bring to this to this to this thing that maybe even the original wasn't thinking of?
And then I think that's That can give it a whole new heart. And I think you said this, nicholae, or maybe you both did. It can stand on its own. Because I think you i think the Bridgerton series stands on its own. You don't need to read the books to enjoy what they're making.
And it's not a perfect show, but I think it does. I was i was very pleased as a romance fan. Yeah. at the choices that they made. And I was like, oh, this is just, and it matters, ah I think back to what you both said, when you find someone who loves the thing, they can do it right. I don't know if Shonda like loved those books, but I think she cared enough about them to execute what made the books interesting, but also to make it for today's viewers. And the books aren't that old, so I should even say today's, but to make it for viewers, yeah.
sofia
No, but i think that's true because romance is like a, this is something they say all the time on Fated Mates, not to bring them back again, but um that romance is like a ah reflective of the time in which it was written.
jen
yeah
sofia
Like it's because it's also written so fast and like published much faster than most other books, I feel like, or most other genres, whatever you want to call them, categories of books that they're like a really true reflection of the time.
jen
Right.
jen
Right.
sofia
And so I think, and her books were like, when were they?
sofia
I don't know when they were published, maybe the 90s or something or early aughts.
jen
Right.
sofia
But, you know, that's still a reflection of the time they were written in, which at that time, romance was still really white.
jen
True.
jen
Yes.
sofia
So, and pretty homophobic.
jen
Yes. Yes.
nicholae
I really like thinking through how and whether adaptations can stand on their own, right? And maybe not surpass the source material. i guess it depends on the adaptation or how you think about it. But there are obviously many adaptations that people love for which people don't even know that there is a book source material.
jen
So true.
nicholae
So I think of something like The Godfather. Many people don't know that The Godfather is an adaptation.
sofia
Oh, that's true.
nicholae
i haven't read The Godfather.
jen
Put me in that camp. I didn't know that.
nicholae
right But i've you know i've I've seen all the movies. I think they're excellent. I couldn't compare them though to the original source material because I haven't read them. So I guess I'm wondering how you all think about enjoyment of an adaptation and assessment of an adaptation if you haven't read the originals, right?
But, you know, adaptations, like if you haven't read, you know, so many of the ones that I've listed on mine, I really love the source material as well. The original book, or at least I've, I've read it.
Right. or I think of something like Jurassic Park. I think it is.
jen
You read that? See, I didn't even know that that was...
nicholae
Yes.
jen
I mean, I know now, but like, yeah, for a long time, didn't know that was a book.
nicholae
Right. Right. Right, so Michael Crichton, you know, the book from what I recall has a lot more scientific detail. It goes a lot more into the evolutionary and biological theories that underpin the science fiction in the story, but that's only really briefly mentioned. Obviously it has to be explained to some degree to the audience in the movies, but it's really glossed over in the movies.
jen
Right.
nicholae
And I think that was a really excellent choice. But I'm curious for both of you, and if you can think of adaptations, obviously some have already been mentioned where you haven't read the source material. What do you How do you engage with the adaptation itself? Obviously, we can enjoy the movie, the TV series or whatever, but how do we how do we assess or engage with it as an adaptation since we're thinking about it?
jen
I love this question so much. And it's, I appreciate you asking it because as I was prepping for this, I was like, oh my God, there's so many things where I either didn't know that there was a book or a thing that preceded the media and, or i have not actually read that book. I've only seen that media.
The one that comes to the top of mind for me is V for Vendetta, which I fucking love that film. It will always have, oh, it's so
nicholae
It's so good. It's perfect. think it's such a good movie.
jen
Oh my God. And and I have never read the book and I've never felt compelled to read the book. I think because I felt like the film did something. it It made such beautiful use of all of the affordances of film. The soundtrack is phenomenal. um the The cinematography is beautiful. The acting is stunning.
nicholae
The acting, yes.
jen
Yes. like i I think when you ask that question, I think of like, yeah, if I never read that book, I would be okay because for me, the film has almost taken on ah ah ah a provenance. If we're going to bring LIS terms into it. Yeah. We are librarians. i mean, I guess that's archives. But if I have to, like, it it takes on an origin of its own for me.
um V for Vendetta is that. Because there's other things where it's one of one. Because, like, I haven't read Lord of the Rings, but I think I would like to. And I bet the books have more to layer in that weren't able to be fit into the films. ah But yeah, for V for Vendetta, I'm like, oh, I'm i'm good. Just the movie.
nicholae
It's so good. i mean, on that same topic, topic where So you haven't read Lord of the Rings. Sofia, had you read Lord of the Rings before you saw the movies?
sofia
Not before I saw the movie. So I actually saw, ah I mean, I read The Hobbit in high school and then I tried to read Lord of the Rings and I didn't get very far because I was like, what the fuck is all this detail? Who cares, man?
And then I watched the movies and then i actually took a sci-fi fantasy class in college and we had to read Lord of the Rings.
And i think it was like coming out at the same time I was reading it, like the second movie or something. So I sort of was reading and watching at the same time.
jen
Oh, that's fun.
nicholae
Yeah. Yeah.
jen
That's interesting.
nicholae
That's cool. I just, i remember, you know, the Lord of the Rings trilogy was such a huge cultural phenomenon at kind of the perfect age for me.
sofia
Me too.
nicholae
And I was one of the, this is such a weird, feel weird saying this, but I was one of the only people who had read it before of my friends.
jen/sofia
Hmm.
nicholae
And so I remember having such a distinctive experience of in the movie theater, of going to see the movies and my friends sitting on either side of me, like, okay, who's that? Like, what so so what are they doing?
[laughter]
what What is their deal? How do they know each other? And because I was such a little fantasy nerd, it was both really fun, but also like, y'all need to just, can y'all just read the books before the next movie comes out?
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
Because they came out very quickly in succession, as opposed to many, many years apart.
jen
Right.
sofia
But so you you think they weren't able to understand what was happening because they hadn't read the books?
nicholae
No, I think they definitely could, but I think they were asking for like more detail and like kind of lore drops.
sofia
I see.
nicholae
This still happens to this very day to me when I rewatch them with people, they'll say like, okay, so who is this person?
sofia
Oh.
nicholae
And like, how, what is their relationship to this, you know, mission that they're on or this place that they're in? or Like, what is the story of this person in relation to like the lore of the world?
sofia
Oh.
nicholae
I was watching the rings of power with a friend when those are,
jen
Yes.
sofia
You guys like that?
nicholae
the rings of power?
sofia
It was really hard for me to get into that.
Nicholae
that is a what that is one that we could go into a lot of detail on if you've seen it because i have very mixed feelings about the rings of power and it's it's interesting as an adaptation because it's not it's not adapted from like one thing it's adapted from a variety of sources some unfinished and some finished by other people but anyway watching that with
jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
nicholae
some friends reminded me of this, you know, nerdy lore catalog that I have in my brain about Lord the Rings. And I think in Rings of Power, a lot of things are really not explained very well.
jen
Not at all.
nicholae
And it's very confusing for a viewer.
sofia
Okay, no wonder I'm like, what the fuck is going on?
nicholae
Yes, yes. But I don't think that's the case for Lord the Rings.
jen
Same.
sofia
So yeah, I didn't think so, okay.
nicholae
But there is more.
jen
Agreed.
nicholae
And when you watch them, you can tell it's a huge world.
sofia
Right.
jen
Right.
nicholae
It has a lot of story. And if you are someone who is really interested ah interested in that but hasn't read the books, you want to know while you're watching it.
sofia
Right.
nicholae
And even I went back and read things, you know.
jen
Literally. Yeah, i'm I'm cackling because I feel like i i am that I am that friend, but to my partner. So he has read all of The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, um and some of The Silmarillion, although he says it's way, it's just, it was very dense and difficult in parts. But i within five minutes, I kid you not, I paused Rings of Power and was like, get over here. need you to explain what is happening.
nicholae
Yeah.
jen
And this is coming from, though I have not read the books, I i only watch the extended editions of Lord of the Rings. I've been on the wikis. I feel like I know more about the universe than...um Maybe just like a casual viewer of them.
nicholae
Yeah.
jen
And I have my yearly rewatch. Every year I rewatch my extended edition. So I felt like I know things. I'm going to be ready for Rings of Power. Within five minutes, I was like, wait, I need you to explain this. And then he did. And I was like, okay, but do you see how that's not present? in the text that they're showing right now.
sofia
Right?
jen
He was like, no, no, no, you're right. But this is what that is. So you really, you hit it, nicholae. I feel like Rings of Power is an interesting one. I'm not that far into it. He and I are watching it together. And literally every five minutes, I'm like, okay, wait, pause. Can you please tell me what is that? And he's picking up on shit that I'm like, oh, that's Isildur
Or excuse me, that's that's Isildur's dad.
nicholae
Yeah,
jen
I didn't know that. Like, I just didn't gather any of those things. Like he's, I really do think Rings of Power is this weird adaptation experience of like, it doesn't seem like you should need a lot because the movies were so, well, they felt really accessible, but that show is something else.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
yeah agree.
sofia
Glad to hear it because I really couldn't make it past that first episode. Like after the first episode, I was like, oh my God, who cares about any of these people? I really don't care.
nicholae
I mean, to me, Rings of Power is is complicated because it's part of it's part of the era of problems brought on by the rise of IP. So when studios buy all this IP, they don't necessarily know what to do with it, but know they need to do something with it to make money.
jen
Mmmmm. jen
That part!
nicholae
It's like, yes, do I want an adaptation of the first or second age of Middle Earth? 100%. I want that so badly. i can't even express how badly I've wanted that my whole life. But there's something that is sometimes soulless about these adaptations.
jen
Mmm!
nicholae
And I think it has a lot to do with the commodification of these stories, right? And to me Rings a Power has that problem a little bit.
Jen
Facts!
nicholae
It's funny because I think, you know, obviously this is the same studio that is, or was adapting the Wheel of Time.
jen
Oh, yes!
nicholae
And and I think the Wheel of Time is a really good adaptation.
sofia
Yes.
nicholae
does not perfectly capture the source material. It simplifies a lot. I mean, how many books are there in the Wheel of Time series now? 14 or something like that.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
And they're dense too. But I think it does a really good job of both taking the story, simplifying it enough to make it into an adaptation that is suited to the television form and bringing it into the world such as it is now. So there's so many queer characters. They're not all white.
jen
Yes, yes.
nicholae
it's These are such good choices that it's making and it's not doing it in a heavy handed way. Sadly, it was canceled. So we are not going to see any more of it at least anytime soon.
jen
Womp womp.
nicholae
But to me, that was a good choice where Amazon, right? Amazon Studios took something, clearly wanted to make a lot of money off of it, but also I think found people who loved the series. Yeah. I don't know as much of the story around Rings of Power and who's making it and how much they love things, but it feels like it doesn't have the heart and soul that other adaptations of epic fantasy books have had.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
Yeah, did you finish Wheel of Time, nicholae?
nicholae
Yes, yes.
sofia
Me too. And they killed the show like at a very crucial moment. And I haven't read Wheel of Time, but I was like, so then it made me feel like I wanted to read it because I did not know what was going to happen. And I was like, I can't say anything without spoiling it. But I was just like, literally both me and my husband were staring at the screen like, that's it? That's how they're, that's what they're going to, what?
jen
Oh, no.
nicholae
Tragic. I mean, it's painful.
sofia
So painful.
sofia
Ugh, terrible.
nicholae
I mean, I think you should read the books, but they are a lot.
sofia
14 books.
nicholae
I mean, it's ah it's a large investment. in the And the story, right, I mean, obviously you wouldn't have to read all of them, but I mean, the story in the show is much more linear than they are in the books.
sofia
Okay.
nicholae
Because the books move around, they have different POV characters, different storylines, different eras, and the show really tries to kind of simplify that timeline to some degrees, and i think does a pretty good job of it.
But You would not, I think, simply be able to read like the first three books and then move on to recapture what was covered in the first three seasons. Although, it again, it's been over 20 years since I've read them. So you might have to look into it more.
sofia
Yeah, we'll see. I probably won't read them, but maybe and maybe if I get like so... so caught up where I'm like, I really need to know what happens to this character. Because like, ah you you're right, like, they made you care about the characters in a short amount of time, which I think is the problem with Rings of Power, where I just didn't understand like who this person was.
jen
Yes.
sofia
And then we spent such a short amount of time with them and jumped to a new character, because those are all the fantasy shows and all the fantasy books. There's like a million characters.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
So if you don't feel invested in the first one, 20 seconds later, there's a like four or five, six more. um And actually, i think like watching with someone who doesn't read fantasy, like my husband, he has a hard time following like so many characters and all their storylines and how they're all connected. And I'm like, oh, like, I think because I read so much fantasy, I'm like, oh no, this is that. This is how they're connected. This is their relationship. Oh, can't you see those undertones of this, this and that?
jen
Right. That fantasy muscle.
sofia
but Even though i've never read them.
nicholae
Literary. Right.
sofia
Yeah, you gotta know.
jen
Yes. Well, and it's interesting, too, because like I struggled with Wheel of Time, not because like the Aes Sedai. Did I say that right?
sofia
Yes, I mean, who knows how you actually say it? Because that's a made up word.
jen
That's true. But they were one of my favorite parts. like all They did so much good. And then I found myself as someone who also has not read Wheel of Time. Mind you, again, my partner has read it. um But rather than ah continue to accost him with questions, I was like, um and I'm going to fall into this.
sofia
Like Google it.
jen
yeah do Exactly, exactly. Do some work. But like I struggled with some of the um like for some reason, the concept of the dragon reborn really threw me because I thought it meant that he was a dragon.
sofia
Oh,
jen
I thought I was like expecting.
sofia
like a literal dragon.
nicholae
Mm-hmm.
jen
Yes, yes, yes. And I was like, OK, I was talking to my partner.
sofia
Oh, interesting.
jen
I was like, Michael, is it? is it Is there a dragon in this world? And he was like, no. I was like, okay, but then well, what does that mean? And so there were it's interesting because I think at the time it was written, that was probably, it was it was, I don't know, maybe an interesting convention. But because my modern fantasy brain goes, dragon reborn, there must be a spirit of a dragon in this man. But then...It clearly was not. So i had I had trouble with some of the terminologies. And then i think some of the Wheel of Time piece, I only liked when we spent time with like the Aes Sedai.
And then we jumped to like the Wolfman.
i think I talked to you about this.
sofia
Uh-huh.
sofia
Oh, sure. There are a lot of characters where, yeah, yes.
nicholae
Yeah, yeah, true.
jen
I was struggling a bit with like, okay, I think in the books, because like Michael was like, well, he's so great. And I was like, but in the show, I'm not getting
sofia
Yeah, he's not he's not really with it, yeah.
jen
Yeah. ah Yeah. It must be challenging to figure out what to adapt in a series that long. and that But I think hands down, it it was better than Rings of Power, which is really sad and interesting and goes back to that capitalization piece of, I guess they spent a lot of money on Lord of the Rings IP and making mediocre adaptations is still worth doing to get the money back.
I don't know. But I kind of like, it's it's really crappy that one that I think is more promising and more, Just better done is the one that's canceled.
nicholae
yeah
sofia
Yeah, but then, you know, something you brought up that's interesting to me is like, and lot of it has to do with casting.
jen
Yes, this is true.
sofia
Like if they don't cast the right person, and and I don't even mean like the person that anyone who's reading the book might imagine them to be, right? Because that's not necessarily it.
jen
Yes.
sofia
Like I'm thinking specifically of like Pride and Prejudice, the one with Keira Knightley and Matthew McFadden.
jen
Yes.
sofia
Because Matthew McFadden, if you just saw a photo of him, you'd be like, this is Darcy?
jen
Totally.
sofia
Sorry, not not interested. But then you watch the movie and you're like, oh my God, I'm in love with this man. Yeah. Something about his acting and like the whole package together. i'm like, you know, that scene where he's walking across the moors with his like white shirt unbuttoned.
jen
Oh, the fog. The sunlight.
jen
Yes.
sofia
You're like, oh my God. Is this another sexual awakening? Yes. For this odd looking man.
jen
Yes. He is an odd looking man, but it works.
sofia
It worked. But that's what I mean, right? Like you could say like, oh, this is who I physically imagined this person to look like.
jen
Yes.
sofia
But then if the acting’s not right, then it's not right.
jen
That's it.
nicholae
And then you watch him in Succession.
sofia
Oh I haven't seen that yet.
jen
Right.
sofia
Is he really good in that?
nicholae
I wouldn't say you're going to fall in love with... You're not going to have a sexual awakening to his character in Succession.
[laughter]
nicholae
i mean, you might. I'm not going to yuck your yum, but i didn't.
sofia
No, i that was a very specific. I mean, and almost anyone who plays Darcy, I'm like half in love with. So even though, you know.
jen
I mean, this is true. It's just a very good character. yeah
But you know, you hit it on the head because what that also makes me think of is the most recent adaptation. I don't know you, have you seen Murderbot, nicholae? Or read Murderbot? Okay.
nicholae
i have not, no, but no, I haven't read it or seen it, but I want to.
jen
Okay.
sofia
Oh, wait, you haven't even read it?
nicholae
No, but I’m excited about it.
jen
Nice, nice. Because Sofia and I were talking about how I think we both felt a little weird at Skarsgård being cast initially. Because when I looked at pictures, I was like, I don't think that's Murderbot.
jen
But then you watch the show and it's like, oh my God, that's Murderbot.
sofia
Mhmm Mhmm
jen
He did really great.
sofia
Yeah. Yeah, because Murderbot comes off as like support, well, I guess the way I imagined this character was like an androgynous, literally like just a robot, but physically looking like a robot.
jen
Yes, yes. Right.
sofia
And Alexander Skarsgård, I mean, I watched, what was that vampire movie, TV show he was in? Oh, True Blood.
jen
Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
sofia
I loved True Blood. So I, yeah.
nicholae
Adaptation.
sofia
Oh that’s true! Another adaptation. I loved both the books and the adaptation. But actually the books have a very different vibe.
nicholae
Very different.
sofia
Yeah, they're a lot goofier.
sofia
They're like you're like, oh wait, this is the same show? It's not really dark the same way True Blood is.
jen
That's fascinating. Okay.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
It makes sense though when you know that Alan Ball was the person who created
jen
Huh.
sofia
Oh, right.
nicholae
True Blood, the adaptation, and that's very much more his vibe.
nicholae
He's going to take it darker.
sofia
Yeah.
jen
I think that worked.
nicholae
It did.
jen
I mean, I haven't read the books, but I thought the show was good.
nicholae
i mean, the show went off the rails for sure after a while, but I mean, the first few seasons are just excellent.
sofia
Yes.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
Yes.
nicholae
Really, really excellent.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
Yeah, so good.
jen
Mm.
sofia
Yeah, it's funny how different, wait, have you read the books, nicholae?
nicholae
I read the first Sookie Stackhouse book.
sofia
Yeah, they're so goofy and comedic. Like that's the only way, like goofy is the only word I can think. Because I think watch, I want to say I watched it first and then tried reading the books.
jen
Mmm
sofia
I mean, I enjoyed them, but they're just like not, you're like, this is the source material?
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Now, back to the books.
nicholae
Are there adaptations you can think of where the the vibe, the tone, is really different than the original? Right now I'm just struggling to think of some, but I wonder if you all can think of any.
jen
That's a great question. It's not... um I mean, I was talking about with Rings of Power, at least, feeling that the thing I struggle with is that Galadriel, who is this, for people who don't know, who's this like very prominent elf in the original series who...um She has this very just this very calm... was It's Cate Blanchett plays her, so that should give you an idea. like a Very wise, very generous kind of in this place. But Rings of Power shows her when she's much younger.
um and I think something that I was talking about with my partner was how it it feels... Not that I need to see her in exactly the same way, but I think they almost tried to Game of Thrones-ify Rings of Power a little bit by making...I think her a bit more ruthless. And i we were like, oh, how interesting would it be if like she had still some of that that generosity or that care, but then um it was ah kind of reflected back at her, like, what are you doing? like you know Because in where she is in the show, they're not very nice to elves.
um So it could be that that goes wrong because the people she's interacting with could be like, oh, don't talk to me. Don't try to be nice to me. don't think that's going to change anything. But I think there's a To me, it felt like it almost went the opposite way. It took some of the light that Lord of the Rings, the movies, um the originals had. Because it looked they're dark, but there were like moments of light. And Galadriel literally gives the main character this symbol the symbol of light for finding his way in the darkest places. And then it kind of takes all that light away.
Mind you, I'm only three episodes into the first season. So I could just be... Maybe I haven't gotten and far enough yet, but... That is on my mind in terms of how a character can feel like changed between adaptations in a way that feels out of character a little bit.
nicholae
i think that's I think that's spot on. And one of the things I guess I'm trying to be patient about with the show or hopeful about with the show is that they will really help us see how across millennia, many, many hundreds of years, a character like Galadriel in Rings of Power can become the Galadriel that we know from the Lord of the Rings, because they seem quite distinct.
jen
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
And one of those choices, it seems like one of those choices that were made to make her more like an action-oriented main character than it is like necessarily exactly true to her story.
That could be wrong. Maybe they'll have like a very compelling way of bridging that gap. But I do think tonally the characters are very different from the movies to the TV series.
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
And that was one that I was concerned about from the beginning, but I'm trying to wait and see, even if I'm a little disenchanted with the series, I'm not gonna stop watching it. I'm never not gonna watch any L-O-T-R or Middle-Earth universe story, but I'm really sort of waiting to see how they handle that.
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
And this is quickly becoming a Lord of the Rings adaptation episode, and I'm 100% here for it
jen
I know, sorry. I love that question though.
sofia
oh
jen
Sofia, did you have any you could think
sofia
No, I couldn't think, but I was going to say about Galadriel, which I can't say as nicely as Jen has um with the elfish accent on it.
jen
I've been practicing.
sofia
I just can't. But um I was going to say she's thousands of years old.
jen
Yes, she is.
sofia
So she could have ah a little bit of a shift in tone
jen
That's true. That is true. right, right, right. right
sofia
I mean, I hear what you're saying, because I felt that way too. I was like, this is the same character?
jen
Right.
sofia
I am not feeling it really.
jen
Mmhmm
sofia
But I guess it takes her some time to develop into the Galadriel we know in Lord of the Rings.
jen
That's true. That’s true.
nicholae
Yeah, I mean, she is much younger, right?
jen
Yeah. yeah
nicholae
In the Rings of Power, she's only like 5,000 years old.
sofia
Right.
nicholae
And in the Lord Rings, she's like 8,000 years old or something like that.
sofia
Right. Right.
nicholae
A lot can happen in 3,000 years.
sofia
Exactly.
jen
This is true.
sofia
Exactly.
jen
Just a baby.
sofia
I got, I mean, I got vibes of like, I'm in my early 20s.
jen
Yeah. And I think I know everything.
sofia
Yes. And then, you know, Lord of the Rings, I'm literally the oldest person alive. Yeah.
jen
ah yes
nicholae
Have you read the book that Big Little Lies is based off of?
nicholae
I, for long time, didn't even know that the TV show was based off of a book.
sofia
Oh, you didn't. No, I didn't because it's kind of in that genre that I didn't say I didn't read, but I kind of don't read it. If it's like a white lady who's like big, like the book is really popular with lots of people.
jen
o
nicholae
Right.
sofia
I just like don't, I'm not interested.
jen
Who wrote this? Because I'm not even knowing what this is.
sofia
I don't remember her name.
nicholae
I don't remember either. I only bring it up because I wondered, i really liked the show, Big Little Lies.
jen
Oh.
sofia
oh
nicholae
And I mean, justice for Big Little Lies, when is it ever coming back? But I really, I wondered if the the book was tonally different because the series has more of a like serious HBO prestige drama kind of vibe, but I wasn't sure if the book had that same vibe.
sofia
Right.
jen
Hmm.
sofia
Our our producer, Imani, says the it's by Leanne Moriarty.
jen
Oh, I've not heard of this person.
sofia
And she, yeah, they did read the book and and said it's kind of serious, also kind of serious, like the series. Wait, did you watch that series, jen?
jen
I've not heard of this book or series.
sofia
Oh, really? it's It's got like all the big names, like Nicole Kidman's in it.
nicholae
Laura Dern.
jen
Oh, shit.
sofia
Reese Witherspoon, yeah.
nicholae
Right.
jen
Oh.
sofia
Zoe Kravitz.
nicholae
Meryl Streep in season two.
jen
Oh, my God. Wait, when was this?
sofia
Yeah.
jen
It was? Is this a recent show or is it?
sofia
I want to say like 2018 maybe?
nicholae
Yeah. Yeah.
jen
Oh, okay.
nicholae
Something like that.
jen
I was under a rock. yeah
sofia
No, I watched most of it on the airplane actually.
jen
It's a good place for watching things. I will say, ah didn't read this book, but thinking of Reese Witherspoon made me think of a different adaptation, Little Fires Everywhere, with Kerry Washington.
sofia
Oh, okay.
jen
Now, didn't read that adaptation, but I liked that show. That was a good...
sofia
Oh, you did?
jen
I did.
sofia
Okay.
jen
And I think it didn't outstay its welcome. i mean, I mostly liked the parts with Kerry Washington and Reese. I think they were good in their roles. There was like a secondary plot with the kids and the teens I thought was just okay, but...
sofia
Okay.
jen
um I quite like that, but I didn't read the novel. So I don't know. It seemed like it would be serious in both cases. So not that that's different, but just hearing Reese's name made me think of a different thing that she was in that I liked. I think that series made some good choices then.
sofia
Yeah, well, another ah series I'm thinking about is Slow Horses. i don't know if you guys have watched or read the books. The books are mysteries, so I know you guys don't really read mysteries, but I haven't...
sofia
I've been wanting to read the books, but the... The adaptation is amazing. And I did, sometimes I get really into a show and then I'm like, oh, I want to listen to like a podcast that talks about it.
jen
Mm-mm-mm.
sofia
So I did find a podcast where they just talk about slow horses in like intense detail, but never the way I really wanted them to, unfortunately. um And they also read the books and it sounds like they're pretty similar in tone, at least.
And I think it's also because the... the showrunner worked with the author whose name I'm forgetting. um Like he talks to him and now they've, I think they've almost caught up to where the books are. Cause maybe there's like seven or eight books and they're maybe about to start season six or something.
um So he's like heavily involved, the author in the adaptation. So I think the vibes are really similar. um And also I just love that show. If you guys ever have a chance to watch it.
jen
You said it’s slow horses?
sofia
It's about this, um like essentially, um what are the spies? Is it like MI5 or something? MI6?
jen
Oh, like the British?
sofia
Whoever. Yeah, the British spy agency.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
they It's like where they dump all of their um sort of loser spies who've fucked up a mission or something. They get sent to like ah what what's called the slough house, like S-L-O-U-G-H house.
jen
Oh, okay, ok okay, okay.
sofia
But then the show is called Slow Horses. And I think the first book is called Slow Horses, but it's like S-O-L-W (oops). um And then you know they get up to the shenanigans, but the sort of main character, the guy who leads that office is Gary Oldman. And he's doing the job.
jen
Love him. Yep, yep, yep. Hmm. Hmm.
sofia
It's great.
jen
Okay. nicholae, have you seen this or read those books?
nicholae
No, I really want to. I love him and I've heard really good things about the show. So it's on my list. And, you know, Apple TV is killing it. They're turning it out with really good TV shows.
sofia
Yeah.
jen
Super, yes.
sofia
Yes, they are.
nicholae
So then they've been making a lot of adaptations, too. So I'm excited about that one.
jen
Mm-hmm. Speaking of spies and adaptations, did y'all know that Killing Eve was adapted from books?
sofia
I didn't know that.
jen
I did not either. yeah have not read them. But it was the original book, I think, was named Codename Villanelle, I think.
sofia
oh
jen
And, oh, God, I just really, really. oh sorry.
[shrieks of laughter]
nicholae
Oh, yeah.
jen
Our producer just put a note in the chat about...
nicholae
That's a vibe.
sofia
but oh
jen
They have read the book and apparently it's erotica or almost erotica. I didn't know that. Well, then it makes real.
sofia
Okay, that but explains those undertones.
jen
It sure does. It sure does. I watched the whole series and I was waiting. I was like, all right, now we we win. i think the series did a great job of dragging out that tension.
Although I have complex feelings about the ending, but maybe not as complex as I did when I originally watched it. Cause you know, it's, I don’t want to spoil it. But yeah, I, that was an adaptation that I ah feel like I'm obsessed with.
jen
And the actor, oh God, Jodie Comer and Sandra Oh, like, oh, they're both so good.
nicholae
Yes, yes.
jen
They're both so good.
nicholae
Our producer also mentioned Pachinko, which is an excellent book and a really good series as well.
sofia
Agree.
jen
Oh, I have not heard of it. What is that about?
sofia
Okay, here's a caveat. Never read, but know what the book is. um It's like a multi-generational saga about a family moving from like Korea to Japan during, I want to say, what's the time frame it was in? Was it World War II?
Okay, 70 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
nicholae
Yeah, Japanese occupied Korea, so that era.
sofia
Yes, that's what it is.
jen
Got it. Okay. We'll have to add that to my list.
sofia
Yeah, I think, a you know, a more serious, heavy book, but it's been on my list for a while, but I just like have never been in the right mood to read it.
jen
Yeah. Yeah.
jen
Right.
sofia
Yeah. Well, on that kind of similar note, is there, like, stuff you can't watch that you've read, but you're just like, this is not a thing I can do because for whatever reason. Like, for example, I have a really difficult time watching, like, sci-fi adaptations, though, specifically. So...
jen
i would love to hear you say more about that.
sofia
I'm like thinking of, oh my God. um Okay. Sorry. This is going to be like, I should have looked this up before, but I forgot about it.
jen
I love it.
sofia
This is a little digging someone's going to have to do. um Okay. George R. R. Martin's assistant co-wrote these books. They're huge, enormous, like, big, thick, and, like, also big in stature.
jen
Huh.
sofia
What are they called? I can't remember. But they got adapted.
jen
Oh, that's sci-fi.
sofia
Yeah, they're sci-fi.
jen
Hmm.
sofia
They got adapted into, I want to say, an Amazon show, like, a while a while ago.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
And I tried to watch, but almost immediately it was like, oh, the the technology isn't there even for this show.
jen
ah
sofia
Like, it's not it's not doing it. So... so
jen
Mmhmm it’s important you know, with sci-fi especially, there's a lot. The look really does matter.
sofia
Yeah, and actually, generally, I'm not someone who cares that much. like people will talk all the time about like you know watching like those Marvel movies and like the green screen.
jen
Right.
sofia
Like, oh, you can tell exactly when this part kicks in. And i I can never tell.
jen
Huh. Right. Yeah. That's the same.
sofia
So it had to have been pretty bad, I think. But there's just like something where if the visual doesn't match like what I think the book should be, then I'm just kind of like taken out of the world.
jen
Hmm.
sofia
I don't know, do you guys have anything?
jen
That's real.
jen
The first thing that popped into my head was, um
jen
it's not a, it wasn't, well, I guess it is books. I'm thinking about Dungeons & Dragons. I'm thinking about the the, so it's obviously it's a game, but it's also a storytelling game. And I have not seen the Dungeons and Dragons movie.
sofia
Oh, Jen, it's so good. I mean, I've never played the game.
jen
No, is it?
nicholae
I really liked it actually. The new the newer one you're talking about?
sofia
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
jen
my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
nicholae
The one with the Justice Smith?
sofia
With Chris Pine.
jen
Yes.
nicholae
and
sofia
Yeah, and Justice, whatever his name is.
nicholae
Yeah.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
Yeah. Yeah.
jen
Okay, well, maybe.
nicholae
I thought it was pretty decent actually.
jen
um
sofia
Yeah, it was so fun.
jen
okay. Well, y'all are gonna make me feel like I Because I think I've been reluctant to watch it because I'm like, how can a single movie capture the magic of like a D&D campaign that usually spans years at a real table, game table? Or if you watch a show like Critical Role or Dimension 20, you know, you'll get like episode like hundreds of episodes of that.
jen
So, but y'all are making me want to watch the movie now.
sofia
Yeah, I mean, as someone who doesn't play the game, but kind of... Oh, this is sort of like another semi-adaptation of Dungeons & Dragons is um Community. You know that episode where they play it?
jen
I never watched Community.
sofia
Have you ever seen?
nicholae
Yeah, yeah.
sofia
You've never watched Community!
jen
No.
sofia
nicholae?
nicholae
Oh, yeah, yeah.
sofia
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so you know the episode I'm talking about?
nicholae
Mm-hmm.
sofia
And even though I know this is not really how people play Dungeons & Dragons, I was like, oh, if this is how they actually play I would definitely play it.
nicholae
Yeah. I do think that trying to adapt something like a Obviously, there have been lots of attempts to adapt games, like tabletop games.
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
I mean, Battleship, anyone?
jen
Oh, right!
nicholae
Like...
sofia
Oh, never watch that.
jen
Holy shit!
nicholae
Girl, Rihanna, Rihanna.
jen
I forgot! Yes!
nicholae
Okay, okay.
sofia
Rihanna's in it?
jen
Yes, she is!
nicholae
So there was like a short period where i think they were trying to do that. I just think trying to adapt something like Dungeons and Dragons is, why why would you do that?
jen
Mmm.
nicholae
Why try? the movie I think is pretty good because it it really just is trying to be a nice fantasy movie.
sofia
Uh-huh.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
But I think of something like
jen
Mmm.
nicholae
Legend of Vox Machina, which I think does honestly a really good job of capturing like the goofiness of a campaign.
jen
Right.
jen
That's true.
nicholae
I really like that show. And I think, but of course, that is Critical Role, right?
jen
Yeah.
jen
Right.
nicholae
I think it's a lot of the people even, or most most of the people.
jen
True.
nicholae
um But, and this will kind of get us into this other topic we wanted to think about perhaps discussing, but... Baldur's Gate is an adaptation of Dungeons and Dragons.
sofia
It is?
jen
This is true. You're right.
nicholae
So I kind of think of it as, maybe that's controversial, but I think of it as an adaptation in a way.
jen
i agree. i agree.
nicholae
And...
sofia
But wait, why why why would it be controversial?
nicholae
because it's Because there is no like one story of Dungeons & Dragons.
sofia
Oh, sure.
nicholae
it's ah It's a framework, it's a system, right?
sofia
Right, right.
nicholae
And there's there's a world that it's, you know, the Forgotten Realms is not its not a world per se, but it's a ah place, a universe.
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
And Baldur's Gate is using the mechanics from the game to tell a story in the Forgotten Realms. And Jen can say much more about the latest one, which goes much deeper.
jen
Right.
nicholae
i know BG3
jen
Oh, you know.
nicholae
i've only I've only played the first two and some of the, you know, there's a variety of games in this universe.
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
But to me, from what I've played and then what I know of the newest one, that is such a like incredible way of taking the system and this these mechanics and putting them into a game and a story that is like somewhat contained, like an adaptation needs to be and making it its own thing that people are really excited about.
jen
Yes.
jen
Yep.
jen
That is so true. Because you don't need to... You you need to know like a few things about D&D. You have a turn with this. like An action and a bonus action.
But beyond that, like the little rule stuff, you don't need to know about the Forgotten Realms. you know and And I've never played the first two games. But the third game... If it's anything like the first two, they just, wow. I mean, the choices they made and also the, it goes back to what you said, Sofia, about good casting.
um It was so beautifully cast. The voice actors were all great in their roles. You can tell the writers cared about making real feeling characters with real traumas and um just stuff that they needed to confront and And you as the player are helping them confront it or sometimes you're encouraging them to confront. Just be evil and be like, you know what? Yeah, the world has wronged you. Let's destroy the world. um But I think that's honestly, yeah, with D&D, that's like the whole point of it is this idea of a shared story where you have agency to shape what it's going to be or where it goes. um And I do feel like, yeah, that works.
sofia
I see.
sofia
Yeah, so maybe the movie's like not really a representation of that because it has a linear storyline that obviously you as the viewer are not like choosing anything happening.
jen
Right. But y'all make a good point in that it sounds like it's not trying to be. And when when I see or hear the phrase Dungeons & Dragons, I'm thinking of the tabletop. But I wasn't thinking of like a good fantasy movie that just plays with those rights.
sofia
takes place, yeah, it's just like in that world and uses the framework.
jen
and Got you.
nicholae
But i you know I do agree with you, Sofia, that I think sci-fi can, frankly, be very difficult to adapt. I think we've seen a lot of really bad adaptations of sci-fi things of various kinds, but there are, i think, some really good ones.
jen
Yes.
nicholae
Like, To me, the Foundation series, which is also Apple, I believe, is quite good. And it's a pretty good adaptation of the books, which I really liked when I was younger. Again, this was a long time ago that I read them.
I actually have not read The Expanse books, but I've seen, think, the whole series.
jen
Oh, right.
nicholae
I don't remember I finished it
jen
It's a very popular one.
sofia
Yes, that's the one I was talking about, The Expanse.
jen
Ah!
Nicholae
but I really, I liked The Expanse.
sofia
Yes. ah Oh, you like the TV show?
nicholae
I did like the TV show. I haven't read the books.
sofia
Oh. Oh, the books are fun.
nicholae
But I think of something like Three Body Problem, which I started to get into the Netflix series.
jen
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
nicholae
And I know there there apparently is a Chinese television adaptation. It's really good that I have not seen. I really like the books a lot. The TV series had a good start, but then kind of lost me because it started to like not really even make any sense.
And it's one of those where they really simplified the concepts that are explored in the book, but it still looked good, right?
jen
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
nicholae
So sometimes it's, I think sometimes Sci-fi in particular makes some sacrifices when they are creating an adaptation and they have to choose like what to emphasize versus what to simplify, especially with sci-fi, the harder sci-fi.
jen
hmm.
nicholae
Studio, the studio, producers are going to be probably asking you to make some sacrifices of complexity and depth so that it's more marketable. I don't know how that goes in every instance or instance or like what conversations they have or how they make those decisions. but I see it happening with a lot of sci-fi series in particular and often to their detriment. But I have to believe that it's possible.
I know that it's possible to do it in a way that doesn't kind of sacrifice the the tone and the complexity, which is what I think a lot of people go to sci-fi for. There's a lot of things people go to sci-fi for, of course.
jen
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
But I like having a really richly detailed world. I love that in fantasy. I love it in sci-fi. And I'm not sort of deterred by a lot of scientific details. And I think maybe some people are. And of course, producers understand that. But I would err on the side of wanting more. And I think a lot of sci-fi doesn't. necessarily do a good job. A lot of sci-fi adaptations don't necessarily do a good job of finding the right balance because it's not about erring on one side totally or the other, but finding the right balance for the series.
sofia
Yeah, I also think the other thing is like maybe even the costuming. It's hard to look futuristic and like wear space outfits without looking, [laughter] I don't know, kind of corny.
nicholae
Yeah. Yeah.
jen
Right. Right.
sofia
And I'm trying to...
nicholae
like looking Xenon girl, you know, Disney original.
[laughter]
jen
Yeah.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
It's giving Xenon sometimes, which I love, but.
jen
Yeah.
sofia
Oh my god. Yeah. Or I was trying to think like, oh yeah, watching like Star Trek, for example, or even Star Wars.
jen
right
sofia
I don't know why I'm able to watch those.
jen
yeah
sofia
But if it's an adaptation of a book, and I'm just like a lot more judgy about how it looks. And if it looks too corny, I'm like, sorry, can't.
jen
Well, and that's a good point, too, because I feel like Star Wars and recently Murderbot, they play with humor in a way where they it sort of doesn't always take itself seriously. But The Expanse, I don't know, I haven't read or watched it, but from what I understand, it's more serious in tone.
jen
Is that right? Or no?
sofia
Yeah, well, yeah, definitely more serious than Murderbot.
jen
Okay.
nicholae
That's one of the great things about...
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
Did you say Star Trek or Star Wars?
sofia
I said both. Or no, I think I said Star Trek.
nicholae
Jen. Jen, I mean.
jen
Star Wars.
sofia
Oh, you said Star Wars.
nicholae
Star Wars, okay, okay. Well, I'm thinking Star Trek.
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
And Star Trek is often funny too. It can be really serious and emotional. It has depth, but it can also be really funny and silly. And to me, that works.
jen
Right.
nicholae
But this is true of Star Wars as well. And I think that allows them to play and give them a lot more freedom such that every decision they make isn't imbued with this like seriousness and gravities.
It needs to be there sometimes. You need to have that emotional gravitas and depth. at times, but taking a more lighthearted approach, perhaps both to the adaptation, but also the vibe of the adaptation, i think gives you a little more room to maneuver.
jen
Right. I will also say, though, that like, have y'all did y'all watch Arrival?
nicholae
Yes.
jen
Or read the short story?
sofia
I know what you're talking about.
nicholae
yeah
jen
Yes, I will just say like, that is something where I feel like the seriousness and tone. I'm just I that's one of the best sci fi movies I think I've seen. And I'm still shocked that it was based off of a short story.
nicholae
Incredible.
jen
And the short story is good. But again, the movie strikes a really beautiful balance. And somehow it doesn't feel cheesy. Like it it it has, like it could have very easily felt that way. Like all these ships descending on the earth could have felt very Independence Day. Like we obviously know that you can play.
[laughter]
I love Independence Day though. I mean, you know no shade, but like that the tone could have very easily felt like, I don't know, goofy if it was not done well, but the acting and the, yeah, it was the right balance of stuff.
sofia
Right, exactly, yeah
nicholae
Yeah. It could have felt really blockbuster-y. It could have felt very Hollywood.
jen
That's the word. Yes.
nicholae
And of course, it is a Hollywood production, but there is a both simplicity and it's really elegant.
jen
Yeah.
nicholae
All the choices they made in that movie, I think, are really elegant.
sofia
Yes, that's a good word for it.
nicholae
And I think the movie story is excellent. right And I think he's an excellent storyteller.
jen
Yeah. yeah Yeah.
nicholae
But I think the movie really elevated that story in a way.
jen
Thousand percent.
nicholae
And I think it's such a good adaptation. And um to me, this also speaks to kind of the theme ah what or some of the things we're talking about, which is how... I mean, a good adaptation is is a work of art, but it's also to some, it's it's on its own, but it is, I think, always to some degree in a productive tension with its source material, right?
It's like, when I think of adaptation, some people I think talk about interpretation, but I always think about the term palimpsest, because I think about how an adaptation…
sofia
We're breaking out SAT words.
nicholae
here we go.
jen
I'm saying, I'm like, I need that spelled.
nicholae
There we go. But i I just think of the ways in which an adaptation is never just its own thing. It's always layered on top of the original. And in addition to existing as both its own thing and the original, it's also imbued with all of the desires and, you know, theories and ideas that are coming from the audience with the creators. It's imbued with all this stuff and and that can make it, I think, feel really overburdened But it's also an opportunity, I think, to see all the layers of this thing and how they do come together really beautifully and delicately or how they don't.
sofia
Yeah.
nicholae
Sometimes and adaptation can't hold all of those desires, can't do all the things that people want, can't be in the world the way that its creators want it to be, and doesn't like have that really beautiful tether to the original book or whatever it happens to be and I think you can see and feel that whenever you're engaging with the adaptation.
sofia
Yeah.
jen
Goddamn. Yeah.
jen
Broke that all the way down and gave me a word I need to look up and see how it's used in a sentence because I had not word heard that word before. I love it.
sofia
so funny
nicholae
It's fun word, fun word.
sofia
Yeah, I guess on that note, what about stuff we want to see adapted?
jen
I really would love to see the Brown Sisters trilogy by Talia Hibbert.
sofia
yeah! Oh my god, I would love that.
jen
Yes. I feel like it would be, feel like movies maybe in a movie format.
sofia
Yeah, those are definitely movies.
jen
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a rom-com, I'm saying.
jen
Yes. Yes.
sofia
Yeah. Oh yeah. I'd love that. Yeah. Why don't they make more rom-coms?
jen
I'm saying, yeah, there's a lot of serious, and or genre adaptations. We talked about a ton of sci-fi and fantasy, but yeah, I don't know.
sofia
Yeah.
jen
Why not more rom-coms?
sofia
Oh, um have you watched The Hating Game?
jen
No.
sofia
Okay, that's based off of the book.
jen
Wait, has that been adapted?
sofia
Yeah, that was adapted and actually pretty good adaptation.
jen
oh
sofia
There's another character where like the male main character, i was like, this is who they picked?
jen
What?
sofia
He's like not that cute. And then I watched it and I was like, oh, he's pretty cute.
[laughter]
jen
The power of acting and costuming and all the other things.
sofia
Yeah, and and they have to have a level of charisma, I think, to pull it off, you know?
jen
That's true.
sofia
nicholae?
nicholae
I was really struggling with this. I think I have more books that I'm afraid that they're going to try adapt adapting.
[laughter]
sofia
Oh, yeah, let's hear those.
jen
That's valid.
sofia
I want to know.
jen
Yeah, say one of those.
nicholae
You know, one of those is, i mentioned i think I think I mentioned this previously as one of my favorite books, but Giovanni's Room. I'm so scared that they're going to adapt this and adapt it really terribly someday.
nicholae
But if they did, I would watch it.
jen
Mm-hmm.
nicholae
I mean, i think...
jen
Yes.
nicholae
Some of these novels that I really love, I think truly just need a miniseries because i always want more room.
jen
Mm-hmm.
sofia
yeah yeah
nicholae
I want more room for the adaptation to breathe. And so movies sometimes feel too brief for an adaptation.
jen
yes
nicholae
Obviously there are times when it gets, it's like just enough. Right? Like, Call Me By Your Name. There's a lot of stuff that was taken out of Call Me By Your Name, but I think it's an excellent movie.
jen
Mmmm
nicholae
Like, just a really excellent adaptation, even if it's a little different and it doesn't carry all the storylines. On the other side of the spectrum is something like Angels in America, which is also an incredible miniseries, incredible adaptation of a play.
nicholae
But I i always am afraid when I hear that they're adapting something that I really love. So I'm not sure if I have any that I really want them to adapt. I'll keep thinking about it as we're talking. But there are some that I'm afraid of them adapting.
sofia
Wait, did you watch If Beale Street Could Talk?
nicholae
I did, and i liked it.
jen
Good question.
nicholae
I liked it.
sofia
Okay.
nicholae
I really loved the book. I didn't think it was a bad adaptation.
sofia
Okay. So it's possible.
jen
i still haven't seen it.
nicholae
It's possible.
sofia
Yeah, I haven't seen it yet, but was curious.
[laughter]
sofia
Our producer, Imani, said Barry Jenkins did the best he could.
nicholae
He did, and he's excellent.
jen
True.
nicholae
He is excellent.
sofia
He is excellent.
jen
Yes.
sofia
Oh, I just watched something else he recently did, I think. but Sorry, I can't remember now. So you can just remove that entire line I just said of nothingness. um
[laughter]
sofia
I want to see. Okay, did you guys read A Master of Djinn by P. Djèlí Clark?
jen
Yeah. I started it.
sofia
Oh, not for you?
jen
i need to finish it. no, no. I just, I just, I fall out of things. But so you want to see that adapted?
sofia
Yeah, I think because, so it's, it's um is it alternative? It's sort of like an alternative world takes place in Egypt and the time, I don't know. It seems historical in the sense of like the clothes they're wearing, like the vibe is like almost like 1920s. But I don't know if that's actually when it takes place and, you know, because also it's a fantasy novel. So it could just be like alternative Egypt. But the costumes would be amazing because the main character, she wears like these amazing suits that get told to us in much detail.
jen
mmm
sofia
um And then there's like fun magic. And like it just like I think because it was ah visually it seems like a visually stunning book, I feel like. just like the vibe of it. I could, I felt like I was like there. And so I feel like that would be a good movie because if you could recreate this same feeling in a movie, then it would be great.
jen
Hollywood, I hope you're listening. We've told you what not to adapt and we've told you what we want to see.
Show Notes
We hope you enjoyed this episode! Below, you’ll find links to topics & resources that came up during our episode.
Books, Authors, and Media Mentioned
Books
No Country for Old Men, Cormac McCarthy
Lord of the Rings trilogy, J. R. R. Tolkien
Bridgerton series, Julia Quinn
The Godfather, Mario Puzo
Jurassic Park, Michael Crichton
V for Vendetta, Alan Moore
The Hobbit, J. R. R. Tolkien
Wheel of Time series, Robert Jordan
Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen
Murderbot series, Martha Wells
Sookie Stackhouse/Southern Vampire Mysteries, Charlaine Harris
Big Little Lies, by Leanne Moriarty
Little Fires Everywhere, Celeste Ng
Slough House, Mick Herron
Codename Villanelle, Luke Jennings
Pachinko, Min Jin Lee
Foundation, Issac Asimov
The Expanse series, James S. A. Corey
The Three-Body Problem, Liu Cixin
Stories of Your Life and Others, Ted Chiang
Brown Sisters trilogy, Talia Hibbert
The Hating Game, Sally Thorne
Giovanni's Room, James Baldwin
Call Me By Your Name, André Aciman
Angels in America (play), Tony Kushner
If Beale Street Could Talk, James Baldwin
A Master of Djinn, P. Djèlí Clark
TV Shows Mentioned
Legend of Vox Machina (“Actual” Play // TV Show)
Movies Mentioned
Pride and Prejudice (2005)
Games Mentioned
Credits
Hosts: Sofia Leung, nicholae cline, and Jen Brown
Producer: Imani Spence
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